robertmackayclan

Posted: **12:51 PM - Jul 09, 2010**

As it stands now my Granville & Orange counties, NC did not come from eastern counties of NC then moving west. They came down from either NJ or VA (Bowling/Bolen from MD).

I wonder where that one guy gets the Pocahontas claims from then?

Posted: **5:30 PM - Jul 09, 2010**

Well, the nature of my Hartless line is that in latter generations before intermarrying into my Entsmingers their patrilineal ancestry wasn't Hartless. I have two instances where the children took their mother's name rather than the father's who was unknown.

Remember the situation with my Smiths? Similar one with my Hartless.

As to the earlier ones I guess it depends on which parent in the first intermarriage was white, black or Indian. If it was a man named Hartless whose paternal line goes back to Native America or Africa it will show up as such and he would have married a white woman and produced offspring which will show the African or Native Y-DNA markers. If the situation was reversed the children will show European markers like Haplogroup R1b1 etc. but will still of course be called 'mulatto'.

Well has any Hartless man being tested?

If your problem was mine, I would work my way back in time using various documents.

If they are listed as "Negroes" then that's what they are. "One drop" of African-American blood then that what they are classified as.

Really all depends on what location you are researching and the time period.

You have visited "Native American Center" in Washington, DC ?

Posted: **5:50 PM - Jul 09, 2010**

I wonder where that one guy gets the Pocahontas claims from then?

That's the million dollar question? How could H.J. Bolen mixed together the two entirely different men. Because he set aside the facts which he did not like and would not get the blood line back to the family of John Bolling of VA.

John Bolling of VA, rich & educated, lived in Dinwiddle Co. VA, did sell some land in Granville Co. NC and he signed his name as John Bolling.

Then there was my line of John Bowling & his wife Elizabeth, made their marks on various documents. John Bowling was with MD Militia during the American Revoluntary War.

His son John Bowling made his mark on his marriage bond (I have a copy) to Martha Mangum.

He made the leap back to VA, because HE WANTED TO be related to the famous Indian.

All of which I find a shame, because I do not want to throw out his information about the Bolen living in Henderson Co. VA, but then I see a researcher being "fast & lose" with the facts I find it hard to believe anything else they have to say.

He personally knew my gr-gr-grandfather Sion M. Bolen and claims to have information from his sister (Aunt Ad) as to the names of Reeves Bolen brothers & sisters back in NC. But my problem is--is all that correct or did he make up stories about them as well.

I am doing to Google the surname "Bolling" and see what new items might be on the net. I would like to know the Haplogroup for John Bolling's family.

Time to do dinner.

Posted: **7:43 AM - Jul 10, 2010**

I will take the information under advisement. But I still hold with Webster Dictionary statement about "Mulatto". You might have areas of the Colonies/US which had groups of people: Native American, freed slaves and white (like in FL)that mixed together in a small community, but they were referred to as Seminole. I am afraid my "fellow Whites" rather have the term "Mulatto" expanded to include "Native American" because they rather not find their blood lines includes African-American. Now D.N.A. testing will give you the the answer to that question and we do not have to go on others "personal opinion" what people "look like".

I believe years ago there was a site which showed the descendants of John Bolling of VA compared to others samples. Obviously totally different families. If you look at the picture of John Bolling Sr. of VA he doesn't look particurly "Indian" to me. On the other hand, the two pictures of my distant Bolen cousins, appear to show non-white features. Logically, they would be at least 12 generations from the time period of Pocahontas.

H.J. Bolen wants "us" to believe that these men just now "look like Pocahontas". Afraid I am not buying it. Another rule of Science, the child can not be dark than the darkest parent. Also I have two other pictures of Bolen men: gr-gr-grandfather Sion Monroe Bolen and his Uncle P.H. Bolen either have the same features as the other Bolen.

So a persons with the surname: Bolling, Bowling, Bolin, Bolen etc..... just take a test and it will rule you in or out as being member of the "Famous Bolling". I am afraid people rather hold on to their fairly tales rather than to have the truth. People have been holding on to their believes for decades and they do not want to have science comming along and take them away from them. Please, do not raise the point of "the cost of the test", they money spend doing a D.N.A. is far less than the cost of doing research.

As far as your family problem: D.N.A. will rule the various Y marker as African-American or not on the male line only. Now if you have distant cousins who are also interested in genealogy, you can look at your pedigree chart and trace the various lines back by the various Hapologroups.

I wish Family D.N.A. Web Site had a menus of all the various surnames that have been tested so we all could "share" the results. For people who have done their library work, armed with additional D.N.A. test, could/should be very helpful. Non-matches just as important as matches.

Since D.N.A. test were not used in our research by earlier researchers, people could make serious research errors.

The most serious error is when we have not found positive records giving us our ancestors' parents , and "we" try linking our ancestors with families that have been established.

If there is a "famous" person to try to link up with so much the better.

This is what as happened with Bolling, Boland, Bolen etc....research.

You can look at any well documented book on the descendants of Pocahontas and look at the generation of:

John Bolling (1700-1757) m. Elizabeth Blair and they had ONLY seven children: Thomas, John, Robert, Mary, Sarah, Archibald & Anne.

However, Bolen researchers wanting to link up with the above couple, self-published books, computer banks, articles, letters, telephone calls and now web sites have given to said Elizabeth Blair 20 CHILDREN: Metoaka, Archibald, Elizabeth, Wm., Jared, Martha, Benj., Dorthey, Thomas, John, Robert, Jane, Rodney, Mary, Rolfe, Edward, Sarah, Anne, Powhatan & James. All found in the notes of H.J. Bolen in his book "A Family History 1476-1976"

Also found on page 116 of the book published by Todd Bolen & Lois (Bolen) Stange in 1997 "The Bolling, Bowling, Bolen Family in America before 1800".

All can be found in the L.D.S. film collection and I am sure people are still passing around this information on their personal web site. People have totally no SHAME.

The above John Bolling who married Martha Jefferson, some very wild stories were made up about him and found in Todd Bolen's book. H.J. Bolen has their son John Bolling married to Alice Kennon, living VA then leaving for Granville Co. NC married to Martha Mangum (he has the wrong parents named for her). The main problem with his story is that John Bolling NEVER lived in NC. Remember John Bolling of VA signed his name as Bolling and the John Bowling who married Martha Mangum, made his "X" on records in Granville Co. VA. I guess the Bolen researchers want us to believe John Bolling of VA "got stupid" in NC and forgot how to sign his name!!

I wish in the past the true descendants of John Bolling of Sr., in public had confronted this false information and the people who continue to circulate it as FACT.

Now we have D.N.A. which can be used as a gate to stop people linking up with the wrong family group. If you think you are descendant of one of the additional children of Elizabeth Blair Bolling , proof it, take a D.N.A test and then in public post the results. For in the past if you posted incorrect information now you can post the correct Scientific Results.

Posted: **9:01 AM - Jul 10, 2010**

Since the court house of Henderson Co. TN has in the past burned down, all the early records for the people living in the area were lost. Like marriage records, birth or death records, land deeds and will etc.... So "we" have to use whatever we can find.

Some of the names of Elizabeth's children are based on Federal Census or Bible Records which have been collected by researchers in the past, some could be based on oral conversation.

Children of Isaac & Elizabeth (Brown) Morris:

1. Mahala Morris b. c1800 NC, she was living with Elizabeth Morrice (sic) for the 1830, not listed for 1840 census, either married or died without issue. She was included on the listing of children supplied by Delores Holladay.

2. Henry Morris b. 18 May 1805 NC, m-1 28 Jan 1830 Henderson Co. TN China G. Foyster, m-2 29 Dec 1841 in Henderson Co. to Piety Cazort, d. 3 Oct 1851 Henderson Co. TN, buried in Morris Family Cemetery in Henderson Co. TN. I have a picture of his grave marker, bible records dealing with his families found in the works of Jonathan K.T. Smith. Said Delores Holladay was a descendant of this couple. If she had personal knowledge about parentage & siblings of Henry I do not know. Hope that is the case.
He had a son named Felix and a daughter named Amanda, so did Frances L. (Morris) Melton.

3. Zenus Morris b. 1814 NC, m-1...........? m-2 c1838 Dorothy Ann Austin, d. c1859 Henderson Co. TN. I believe I have contacted in the past by researcher of his line. For the latter census I believe one of his daughters living with Benson family. I do not know if this is the only reason believe a relationship with #4 James G. Morris. There is a place for male his age group 1830 census Elizabeth Morrice (sic)

4. James G. Morris b. 1817 NC m. c1842 Mahala Benson, d. c1869 Henderson Co. TN. Delores Holladay had him on her list as son of Elizabeth as James Morris. D.N.A test has been done.

5. Wm. Pitts Morris b. 12 Jan 1817 Sumner Co. TN, m. 2 Jul 1838 Perry Co. TN to Elvira Jane Johnson, d. 22 Apr 1893 Camden Cemetery in Benton Co. TN. His name on the list of Delores Holladay. You will find a lot information about him in the works of Jonathan K.T. Smith. In connection with him is only one piece of information which named his parents as Isaac Morris & Elizabeth Brown as coming into TN for Orange Co. NC. I have not been able to find any record that he directly named any of his siblings. In the works of Jonathan K.T. Smith stated that he personal talked to the family members of said Wm. P. Morris. His works contains a picture of said Wm. P. Morris & his house.

6. George W. Morris b. 1821 TN, m. L.J. Morgan, died by 1870 Henderson Co. TN. He is connected to Elizabeth and his sister Frances L. (Morris) Melton by census information. Delores Holladay did not include him on her listing of children.

7. Frances L. Morris b. 1824 Henderson Co. TN, m. Cornelius Melton, d. 13 Aug 1878 Henderson Co. TN. Connected to Elizabeth (Brown) Morris by 1830,1840,1850, 1860 & 1870 census. Delores Holladay did not include her on her listing of children. This is my blood line, D.N.A. done.

Since Reed Morris has done his D.N.A test any Morris male has been handed a "gold opportunity" , just submit your own sample to see if you match.

If you descend from said Mahala Morris then you could help document the above set of children.

I have the names of other Morrice living in 1830 Henderson Co. TN, if you know if related to Isaac & Elizabeth (Brown) Morris, I would love to know your sources.

I have just received from the FamilyTree DNA web master for Morris Family, a request to spend more monies to update my Morris Test Results.

The problem with this request I have already done that !!

I send a response to her and I plan to send e-mail to the Main Site of FamilyTreeDNA wanting to know if they have a section on their main site where we can look, study & obtain the test results of all their surnames tested.

If this not possible then they should clearly state on their main site, that we only have the information they "deem" we should have.

I naively thought all records would be available to me.

Posted: **9:08 AM - Jul 10, 2010**

Well, the nature of my Hartless line is that in latter generations before intermarrying into my Entsmingers their patrilineal ancestry wasn't Hartless. I have two instances where the children took their mother's name rather than the father's who was unknown.

Remember the situation with my Smiths? Similar one with my Hartless.

As to the earlier ones I guess it depends on which parent in the first intermarriage was white, black or Indian. If it was a man named Hartless whose paternal line goes back to Native America or Africa it will show up as such and he would have married a white woman and produced offspring which will show the African or Native Y-DNA markers. If the situation was reversed the children will show European markers like Haplogroup R1b1 etc. but will still of course be called 'mulatto'.

Did you get the Smith information I send you ?

If your problem was my problem, which it is not: Before I spend a lot of time & monies studying Native Americans Tribes (unless you have another reason) I would first firmly establish I had Native American Ancestry. Then study that particular group.

But how you spend your time is your business.

Posted: **9:48 AM - Jul 10, 2010**

I have order additional reports about my J 1 c 8 results. If they give any interesting information I will pass it along. The two matches I received notice "being a match" have not been helpful.

This results, however, has settle any thought this female line contained African-American or Native American.

The following surnames I will be trying to tract through legal & public records: starting with my grandmother:

1. Olive Odillion KING born 29 Oct 1906 (born on mother's birth date) Yuma, Carroll Co. TN died 22 Jun 1982 Silver Spring, Montgomery Co. MD m. Roy Dennis Hopgood, she had one sister who could have passed along the same Mitochondrial markers. She was the daughter of:

2. Dessie Green BOLEN b. 29 Oct 1885 Bowling Green, Warren Co. KY, died 4 Nov 1967 Alton, Madison Co. KY married Joseph Hulon King, she had sisters who could have passed along the same D.N.A. markers. She was the daughter of:

I have a picture (me, my mother, O.O. King & D.G. Bolen) of the four generations of this direct line. I have personal knowledge of all the women in this direct line and offical records.

3. Amanda E. MELTON b. 25 Aug 1853 Henderson Co. TN, d. 30 Aug 1888 Yuma, Carroll Co. TN m. Sion Monroe Bolen, she was the only daughter of:
I have a picture of Amanda E. with my gr-grandmother as an infant.

4. Frances L. MORRIS b. 1824 Henderson Co. VA, d. 13 Aug 1878 Henderson Co. TN married Cornelius Melton, she had a sister and they were the daughter of Elizabeth

5. Elizabeth BROWN b. 1780 in Orange Co. NC, d. after 1872 Henderson Co. VA, married Isaac Morris. For the 1870 Henderson Co. TN she was living with her daughter Frances L. (Morris) Melton and her granddaughter Amanda E. Melton. So my line is set for seven generations.

The records I have order and studied for Henderson Co. TN, I can't find a legal document naming the parents of said Elizabeth (Brown) Morris. If the records exist then I will have to find them in other counties in TN or in Orange Co. NC.

I am still looking for good documentation as to the children of Isaac Morris & said Elizabeth Brown.

I am aware others have posted information about my line on the "net" and a good amount of the information they do not give their sources.

Well, they have done a lot of work since I last check out their site.

Group 1--String R & W has the samples supplied by Robert Bolling of VA
given as Fh480 Rlbl (has all the other numbers)

Group 3--String U3 John Bowlin c1762 Martha Mangum Fh419 Rlbl

I will have to search the other entries, for I am looking for men tested that lived in Charles Co. MD.

Posted: **12:40 PM - Jul 10, 2010**

Well has any Hartless man being tested?

If your problem was mine, I would work my way back in time using various documents.

If they are listed as "Negroes" then that's what they are. "One drop" of African-American blood then that what they are classified as.

Really all depends on what location you are researching and the time period.

You have visited "Native American Center" in Washington, DC ?

It would be interesting to find out if any Hartless persons had Y-DNA tests done.

I actually do focus on my known families here and work back. I hope to acquire evidence that will one day prove or disprove Indian ancestry in these families (or African if that ends up being the case) but I don't go out of my way to try my darndest to make the claim that they are indeed Indian and then set out to 'prove' it to be true if you know what I mean by that. I just take whatever comes my way and apply it when possible.

The sad thing though is knowing what I know about the Hartless family if one of the latter Hartless ancestors was to do a Y-DNA test and one of the earlier ones that it would come back showing not related only because the latter Hartless person's paternal ancestry really isn't Hartless. Part of the complication with Y-DNA testing. We are lucky our lineage in the McKay family followed the proper married pattern (with the exception of Kent Smith, still don't know why he matches so closely with us).

On my mother's side I'm the only known one who has had the MTDNA test done and my Y-DNA test only works on McKay. Maybe I can talk one of my relatives on my mom's side to do a Y-DNA test for Jenkins. Would have to be one of my uncles or else their sons.

Posted: **12:45 PM - Jul 10, 2010**

Did you get the Smith information I send you ?

If your problem was my problem, which it is not: Before I spend a lot of time & monies studying Native Americans Tribes (unless you have another reason) I would first firmly establish I had Native American Ancestry. Then study that particular group.

But how you spend your time is your business.

If I hadn't mentioned it before I apologise. I did receive the Smith info. but haven't incorporated it into the website yet. Eventually that will happen. Right now been copying photos from the Floyd McKay branch for a cousin in that line. Then I want to get back to working on the Quaker Meetings in SW Ohio. After that I should be back on the 'Maverick's Corner' families again where I'll add the Smith data.

Yeah, I go back through my own families and if the data that makes an Indian connection is there I will find it. I do not go out of my way to try and 'prove' our families are Indian. That proof (yes or no) will come in it's own time.

(P.S. I also don't believe that they descend from only one Indian tribe. Like our European ancestors you have different peoples coming together for a variety of reasons and intermarriage between all of them will definitely happen. From the McKay side how many nationalities can we trace ancestry to? We have German, French, English, Scottish, Welsh, Dutch, Irish to name some. Same thing likely true when researching Eastern American Indian ancestry.

Posted: **2:10 PM - Jul 10, 2010**

Well, they have done a lot of work since I last check out their site.

Group 1--String R & W has the samples supplied by Robert Bolling of VA
given as Fh480 Rlbl (has all the other numbers)

Group 3--String U3 John Bowlin c1762 Martha Mangum Fh419 Rlbl

I will have to search the other entries, for I am looking for men tested that lived in Charles Co. MD.

Well I guess The Bolling Association holds no ill will towards the book compiled by Todd Bolen & Lois (Bolen) Stange which supplied to the public all the incorrect information about the Bollings of VA.

The numbers found on the web site first column Fh419 & Fh419 are the same numbers they assigned to which Bolen man found in Todd Bolen's book. Nothing to do with D.N.A test by the lab.

His book was arranged by first name of the various Bolen etc...men. So now you can look in his book and the Bolen who claiming to be descendants of Robert Bolling, the D.N.A. clearly shows they are not.

robertmackayclan

My Mitochondrial Test