robertmackayclan

I hope this letter finds everyone doing well.

My name is Kent Smith. I am the GG-Grandson of John D(ennis?) Smith, b. 1851 in Bates Co., MO. His obituary stated that he was an orphan at about the age of 7 (~1858). I have been searching for his parents for about 10 years now with no success. Late last year I submitted my DNA to FTDNA expecting to find a match with someone in the hundreds of Smiths. To my surprise I found some close matches with 4 different McKay (various spellings) submitters. A few months ago I found a match of 65/67 with one David Wilson McKay.

They have traced their McKay ancestry back to Robert Mackay. According to FTDNA I have a certain probability of one of these Mackay men being my paternal ancestor with the following likelihood out of each generation:

Gen 1 - Robert Mackay – 79%

Gen 2 - James Mackay – 70%

Gen 3 - James Mackay – 57%

Gen 4 - Robert T McKay – 41%

Gen 5 - Issac McKay – 22%

I am currently working on searching through each generation to find out who may have ended up in MO where I assume John D Smith’s parents were killed. His obituary only states he went to live with relatives, but nothing about their names. We have no family stories about the family that raised him or why his last name does not match his DNA.

If there is a way I can get a message to the many Mackay researchers about my story to see if anyone might have a family story about a family who died in the 1850s and left a child or children that might help my efforts. I assume I could post it to one of the forums just as easily now that I think of it. J

In case you are interested, here is his obituary from 1947 in Oklahoma.

In memory of John Dennis Smith

I am interested in joining any distribution lists or other information pertaining to the Robert Mackay Clan.

Sincerely,

Kent Smith

Livermore, CA

Gerard McKay has a posting dealing with his McKay who removed from VA to St. Charles Co. MO. His line from Robert Sr. to Jacob Sr. to Asa McKay. Not near your research area. From his postings here, he seems to have done original research in his area. You will want to e-mail him.

In my e-mail I think you should look at the descendants of Moses Jr. (son of Moses Sr. son of Robert Sr.) They settled in Clay & Ray counties, MO.
There are lots of unknown lines connected with Moses Jr. I have not looked at the original records in these locations. So you might find a lot or nothing.

I do not know if some of the descendants of James Sr. settled in MO, but I do not think they would be early enough to be the parents of your Smith ancestor. More of those lines have been found beyond 1850's.

By the end of next May I hope to be finished abtracting Frederick Co. VA land deeds and then I will begin on my Shenandoah Co. VA Project. I will first do the land deeds for that location. I will be posting on Michael's site (only place I post information on the net) to see when and where "our" McKay left VA to parts west and south. I think I will find more information about the lines started by Robert Sr. sons: James, Zachariah & Moses and his daughters.

Be advise there are lots of different McKay living in area of VA, and I am sure the same is the case with MO records. I would not want to be the one to raise you hopes you are a direct decendant of "our" Robert Sr. and then it turns out not to be the case.

Keep us posted on your findings.

I hope this letter finds everyone doing well.

My name is Kent Smith. I am the GG-Grandson of John D(ennis?) Smith, b. 1851 in Bates Co., MO. His obituary stated that he was an orphan at about the age of 7 (~1858). I have been searching for his parents for about 10 years now with no success. Late last year I submitted my DNA to FTDNA expecting to find a match with someone in the hundreds of Smiths. To my surprise I found some close matches with 4 different McKay (various spellings) submitters. A few months ago I found a match of 65/67 with one David Wilson McKay.

They have traced their McKay ancestry back to Robert Mackay. According to FTDNA I have a certain probability of one of these Mackay men being my paternal ancestor with the following likelihood out of each generation:

Gen 1 - Robert Mackay – 79%

Gen 2 - James Mackay – 70%

Gen 3 - James Mackay – 57%

Gen 4 - Robert T McKay – 41%

Gen 5 - Issac McKay – 22%

I am currently working on searching through each generation to find out who may have ended up in MO where I assume John D Smith’s parents were killed. His obituary only states he went to live with relatives, but nothing about their names. We have no family stories about the family that raised him or why his last name does not match his DNA.

If there is a way I can get a message to the many Mackay researchers about my story to see if anyone might have a family story about a family who died in the 1850s and left a child or children that might help my efforts. I assume I could post it to one of the forums just as easily now that I think of it. J

In case you are interested, here is his obituary from 1947 in Oklahoma.

In memory of John Dennis Smith

I am interested in joining any distribution lists or other information pertaining to the Robert Mackay Clan.

Sincerely,

Kent Smith

Livermore, CA

What does it mean "65/67" match with David W. McKay ? Second, Third, Fourth etc cousins ?

Your Smith ancestor would have been about the same generation as my gr-grandfather Charles E. McKay (1857-1932). His blood lines goes back five generation to Robert Sr. and the common ancestor of all those McKay in IN started by James Sr.

Charles E. McKay son of
Thomas Buck McKay son of
Jacob McKay III son of
Jacob McKay Jr. son of
Jacob McKay Sr. son of
Robert McKay Jr. son of
Robert Mackay Sr. son of ..........? not proven

I am the tenth generation back to Robert Mackay Sr.

If your DNA test does not narrow the time period to a common ancestry less than 200 years with Michael, then I would not chase around McKay information until you have more documented material.

Perhaps you have a common ancestor with the George surname?. OR SOMEONE who has not be tested!.

Understand I have no problem with the science of DNA, just think people want to over interpret the results. If your common ancestor with Michael is 500 years in the past, so what. That information is not going to be helpful to you to document your ancestors here in US.

Looking foward to hearing from you.

His line is tested with 67 markers with Bibby McKay's brother and is only off by two markers. That's what he means by 65/67. At this point and time we don't know where his line branches out from but being his and David's line are the closest I'm under the belief he descends from James (son of Robert Sr.).

If you visit my test matches page you'll see the remaining Robert Mackay descendants with their results listed and can compare them. Junior McKay is one and we also have two Key descendants who showed a match with our family at a point I believe proves that they connect with us before Robert Mackay Sr.

Here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/mckyrbnsn/line ... tches.html

Here's the name of the participants:

3KJFW (my test results. I haven't upgraded to a 67 marker test)

2N9PD (Justin Key) a descendant of an immigrant named Moses Key.

5SA8X (David Wilson McKay) A descendant of James (son of Robert Sr.)

7ZPVG (Kent Smith) likely a descendant of James also.

DT9Z8 (Junior McKay) a descendant of Moses (son of Robert Sr.)

QZ6U2 (The one with the George surname) Initially matched 12/12 but hasn't upgraded to any other testing levels.

That really doesn't answer my question. Does the DNA test give the degree of cousins ? Is the common ancestor 200 years in the past, 300 years or 500 years ect....

IF indeed his male line was a MCKAY ancestor--from what I have been told, I think it is far more likely he should look into the line of Moses McKay Jr. living in western MO. This location is closer to his location in MO.

It is just as likely there are SMITH which match him and have not been tested.

How he spends his time and money doing research is his affair, but in the end he could chase around the US a family which in the end he is not related.

I hope this letter finds everyone doing well.

My name is Kent Smith. I am the GG-Grandson of John D(ennis?) Smith, b. 1851 in Bates Co., MO. His obituary stated that he was an orphan at about the age of 7 (~1858). I have been searching for his parents for about 10 years now with no success. Late last year I submitted my DNA to FTDNA expecting to find a match with someone in the hundreds of Smiths. To my surprise I found some close matches with 4 different McKay (various spellings) submitters. A few months ago I found a match of 65/67 with one David Wilson McKay.

They have traced their McKay ancestry back to Robert Mackay. According to FTDNA I have a certain probability of one of these Mackay men being my paternal ancestor with the following likelihood out of each generation:

Gen 1 - Robert Mackay – 79%

Gen 2 - James Mackay – 70%

Gen 3 - James Mackay – 57%

Gen 4 - Robert T McKay – 41%

Gen 5 - Issac McKay – 22%

I am currently working on searching through each generation to find out who may have ended up in MO where I assume John D Smith’s parents were killed. His obituary only states he went to live with relatives, but nothing about their names. We have no family stories about the family that raised him or why his last name does not match his DNA.

If there is a way I can get a message to the many Mackay researchers about my story to see if anyone might have a family story about a family who died in the 1850s and left a child or children that might help my efforts. I assume I could post it to one of the forums just as easily now that I think of it. J

In case you are interested, here is his obituary from 1947 in Oklahoma.

In memory of John Dennis Smith

I am interested in joining any distribution lists or other information pertaining to the Robert Mackay Clan.

Sincerely,

Kent Smith

Livermore, CA

I trust you have found your John Smith

1. the Federal Census for 1860, 1870 & 1880 in Bates Co. MO and then in OK
2. Birth & death register for Bates Co. MO might exist in 1851
3. His marriage record 5 Jan 1876 in MO should have parents given
4. Death record in OK.

I would start with records in Bates Co. MO before you spend your time in other parts of the US. You really need to find the names of his "relations" who took him in until of legal age. Court records might help filed in Bates Co. MO.

Good luck.

That really doesn't answer my question. Does the DNA test give the degree of cousins ? Is the common ancestor 200 years in the past, 300 years or 500 years ect....

IF indeed his male line was a MCKAY ancestor--from what I have been told, I think it is far more likely he should look into the line of Moses McKay Jr. living in western MO. This location is closer to his location in MO.

It is just as likely there are SMITH which match him and have not been tested.

How he spends his time and money doing research is his affair, but in the end he could chase around the US a family which in the end he is not related.

It's more of a probability factor because what's being measured is a string of DNA that is only passed on the Y Chromosome.

This string of DNA will eventually produce mutations in it's sequence and the rate of those mutations varies between individuals. Some people could go through 11 generations without any mutations between their two respective lines from a common ancestor and others could have three or four mutations.

Our family seems to be in the latter scenario.

The probability factor comes in to play in that they say 'you might share a common ancestor 11 generations ago to 20 generations ago' given on how much of your Y-DNA string matches each other. They cannot pinpoint the exact relationship using this.

That's why genealogy records and documentation helps.

I was able to get a picture of how our various Robert Mackay descendants (including myself) compared to each other because Bibby Appleby's brother and Junior McKay both can trace their lines back to Robert Mackay Sr. and so can I.

I see what appears to be a 2 to 3 point difference in each of our lines Y-DNA strings.

Kent Smith also matches very closely with Bibby's brother which is why I believe that their respective lines haven't mutated that much from each other, but they both show the same amount of difference between me and Junior.

If I were to test my DNA string with that of Hunter Branson McKay most likely we should have an exact match unless a mutation occurred in either of our lines after separation at Thomas Buck McKay. One mutation would change how my string reads compared to his. There is no fixed rate of mutation and everything can also involve a lot of guess-work but suffice it to say if you have fewer mutations in your line when comparing to another individual chances are you are likely more closely related to that individual.

Dee Ann,

It may take more more than just one night to respond to your many very good questions. It looks like Michael has respnded to most of the DNA related questions and I am happy with his responses as they are very close to what I would have said.

In the other threads I will respond to your other questions.

Thanks

Kent Smith

I trust you have found your John Smith

1. the Federal Census for 1860, 1870 & 1880 in Bates Co. MO and then in OK
2. Birth & death register for Bates Co. MO might exist in 1851
3. His marriage record 5 Jan 1876 in MO should have parents given
4. Death record in OK.

I would start with records in Bates Co. MO before you spend your time in other parts of the US. You really need to find the names of his "relations" who took him in until of legal age. Court records might help filed in Bates Co. MO.

Good luck.

Here is what I have so far on John Dennis Smith

Rolla Smith Family Bible given to him by his father John Dennis Smith (currently in the possession of my father)
Birth date
Marriage date
Death date
No information on parents or guardians of John D. Smith.

Federal Census
1880 Hudson, Bates, MO
1900 Mustang, Canadian, OK
1910 Yukon, Canadian, OK
1920 Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, OK
1930 Yukon, Canadian, OK

Obituary 1946 "The Sun", OK (copy posted by Michael a few days ago)
Excerpt:
"...John Dennis Smith was born in Bates county, Missouri, March 19, 1851. His parents died when he was, seven years old and he made his home with relatives until he was old enough to take care of himself. During the Civil War at the age of 12 he carried the U. S. mail on a mule from Germantown, Mo. to Calhoun, a distance of ten miles, being assigned the task on account of the threat of Bushwhackers killing the men. He was married to Marietta Mendenhall of Appleton City, Mo., January, 1876 and to this union seven children were born..."

Obituary Oct 4, 1946 "The Oklahoman", OK
Excerpt:
"...John D. Smith, 95, pioneer Yukon resident and retired farmer, died early Thursday in his home...Smith, who carried mail during Civil war days in Missouri, was born March 19, 1851, in Bates county, Mo. He came to Oklahoma in 1890 and settled on a farm nine miles southwest of Yukon. Living there until 1908, he then moved into Yukon and had lived there until his death."

Birth Records MO
I have contacted their department and they confirm they have no data on births that far back. They begin to hold birth records around 1880.

Death Records MO
They also do not have any death records back in the 1850s.

Marriage Records MO
Requested a copy, but the office claims it is not on file.

Missing Federal Census documents
I have not located any John Smiths in MO in 1860 or 1870 that I can say with any confidence would be him. I will eventually need to trace every one of them to see if I can eliminate them. However by his own claim he was living with relatives in 1860 and possibly 1870. With a name like John Smith there is a LOT of data to sort through with little hope of confidence any one of them is the correct John Smith.

Death Record MO
Here is one document which looks like I have not yet tried to obtain. At least I don't recall trying. I will have to get on that one ASAP to see if there is any other useful information.

Kent Smith

It's more of a probability factor because what's being measured is a string of DNA that is only passed on the Y Chromosome.

This string of DNA will eventually produce mutations in it's sequence and the rate of those mutations varies between individuals. Some people could go through 11 generations without any mutations between their two respective lines from a common ancestor and others could have three or four mutations.

Our family seems to be in the latter scenario.

The probability factor comes in to play in that they say 'you might share a common ancestor 11 generations ago to 20 generations ago' given on how much of your Y-DNA string matches each other. They cannot pinpoint the exact relationship using this.

That's why genealogy records and documentation helps.

I was able to get a picture of how our various Robert Mackay descendants (including myself) compared to each other because Bibby Appleby's brother and Junior McKay both can trace their lines back to Robert Mackay Sr. and so can I.

I see what appears to be a 2 to 3 point difference in each of our lines Y-DNA strings.

Kent Smith also matches very closely with Bibby's brother which is why I believe that their respective lines haven't mutated that much from each other, but they both show the same amount of difference between me and Junior.

If I were to test my DNA string with that of Hunter Branson McKay most likely we should have an exact match unless a mutation occurred in either of our lines after separation at Thomas Buck McKay. One mutation would change how my string reads compared to his. There is no fixed rate of mutation and everything can also involve a lot of guess-work but suffice it to say if you have fewer mutations in your line when comparing to another individual chances are you are likely more closely related to that individual.

The DNA research is quite facinating. In fact it is perfect for doing what I am trying to achieve; finding out what appears to be a dead end with the paper trail.

An exact match of the Y-DNA strings is a clear indication that two people share the same Father, or Grandfather, or Great Grandfather, etc. As mutations occur, that increases the probability that the common ancestor is a few more generations back.

With Bibby's brother and my 67 string result matching exactly in 65 of the 67, the very detailed research on that statistic indicated the likelihood in percentages that I listed earlier. There is effectively no chance that my Y-DNA could match better with a different paternal line. If I were to match closer to someone with a different last name than McKay or even my own, that would only indicate they two are not truly that name, but really a McKay by genetic proof.

As for which line I am descending from, that may not be as clear, but because my DNA matches closer to Bibby's brother, it is less likely that I am through any other son of Robert than the son Bibby's brother descends through. Of course that is simply a probability, but the higher mutations to Michael and Junior would indicate their lines are much less connected to mine than Bibby's brother.

Either way I will likely investigate all the sons eventually.

Thanks for all your suggestions and advice.

Kent Smith