robertmackayclan

A researcher Charles D. Nelson (e-mail address cnelson15@cfl.rr.com) has contacted me with the following question:

"The research I have done indicates that William Nelson, my gggg grandfather married a Mary McKay in Woodstock Virginia around 1770. We had always thought that her father was James McKay. However, according to the will I just read in the Robert Mackay clan papers on the internet James and his wife Mary did not have a daughter named Mary. By will Mary is he name of Williams wife and I have a copy of that document. In addition I have the deeds from Shandano Virginia both families were living at that time. Would you have any information as to the line of descent of Mary ? It would seem that if James wife was named Mary one of the daughters would be named Mary as that was the way of doing things at that time.

Any help would be appreciated.

If you have any books on the subject I would be happy of purchased them.

Thanks

Charles D. Nelson "

I answered Mr. Charles D. Nelson in the following way.

I believe about the time "we" were having a discussion about the matter of the three additional daughters of James & Mary (Chester) McKay; some of the entries were deleted.

You will want to view the two which remain #186 & 187 now on page 19.

My point has always been, that Thomas Green, did not name his sources. In short-- it is not a documented source. All the land deeds in Shenandoah Co. VA that I have viewed named only five children of James Mackay. So even if his "report" was compiled during the life time of the people named, we still do not know what he was using as his sources. We really do not know if he had personal knowledge of these people.

Found in my entry #186, puts on the table that was a different couple (same age group as the children of Robert SR.) named James & Mary McCoy/McKay. This couple had purchased lands in question from Lord Fairfax. Did they have a daughter named Mary who married a Wm. Nelson ? I do not know. But members of this family I believed removed to TN. The known male children of James & Mary (Chester) McKay (son of Robert Sr.) removed to OH & IN.

There is a second possible event: we know that Henry Nelson purchased land from James Mackay Sr. This land was in dispute in the Fairfax Land Suit. See Hunter B. McKay compiled report. This Henry died in TN. Stated in his will--he did not want his son Wm. to have any of this property in VA. Now I have found in the past if a father did not want a child to have control of a certain property he would convey said property in trust to a third party or to a spouse. Is this what happened with Henry Nelson's lands in VA ? Did he will his lands to his daughter-in-law Mary wife of Wm. Nelson ? Did Thomas Green made a mistake thinking that the property Henry Nelson purchased from James Mackay was just willed to said Mary Nelson from said Henry Nelson ? And she in no way was related to said James Mackay. We will never know, because Mr. Green did not name his sources.

Now I have some questions/statements for you:

1. Are you sure about the locations of your Wm. & Mary Nelson marriages ? Other researchers have claimed Frederick Co. VA other VA counties & TN.

2. When, where & who was the thought first issued that Mary wife of Wm. Nelson was the daughter of James Mackay ? How much of your information is just coming from other web sites & the internet ?

3. It is not just James Mackay's will which does not include Mary Nelson as his daughter. But land deeds, estate division & attorney appointments. You can pay lots of money to any professional genealogist (see my listing of one on Michael's site) and he or she will be looking at the same original records. They would not give you as evidence oral tradition from family members and I am sure you would demand more for your money.

4. There were other Mcccoy, Mckay, Mckee living in the Lower Shenandoah Valley, VA. Just because these different groups lived together, does not make them kin. MacKay (various spellings) very common name.

5. The names James & Mary are common names,no it does not surprised me that every couple named a daughter Mary, Margaret, Hannah, Elizabeth etc.....

6. Main question I have for the Nelson & McCarty researchers, what original documentation do you have which clearly names

(a) Mary wife of Wm. Nelson,
(b) Hannah wife of Isaac McCarty
(c) Edith wife of Jonathan McCarty,

as siblings and more importantly the siblings of:

1. James McKay Jr. married Mary Cheek, he died before his father, his portion to the estate to his children who settled in IN.

2. Lydia McKay married James Leeth Sr. she died in KY.

3. Susanna McKay married John Curle died in KY

4. Robert McKay married Lydia Leith died in IN

5. Nancy McKay married Ebenezer Leith lived in TN, he died in AL.

I have no evidence that the wife of your Wm. Nelson--MARY--was in fact a member of any McKay family of Lower Shenandoah Valley, VA. I do not have to prove a negative. What do you have that she was a McKay ???

To discover the ancestry of Mary, wife of Wm. Nelson, you might have to look at early Augusta/Orange/Dunmore counties of VA. You might also want to go back over your notes, to see if others in the past questioned the surname of Mary, wife of Wm. Nelson. If you only have the "Green Report" as your source--you have a VERY BIG PROBLEM. From the e-mails, letters & phone calls I have received, I suspect this is the only source you do have; or your sources will lead back to the same source--"Green Report". I have found in my own research, when a group of people think something is right, they set aside information which questions their jointly held beliefs.

My late great-uncle Hunter B. McKay was the one who compiled the Fairfax Land Suit. A copy of his work can be rented from the L.D.S. library system. I did re-type using a smaller type setting his work. You can purchase a copy from me for $21.00. I have compiled a work dealing with the life of Robert Mackay and some of his descendant cost of $30.00. But I do not think you are a member of his family.

My line of McKay never really left VA: Robert Sr. to Robert Jr., Jacob Sr., Jacob JR., Jacob III, Thomas B. to Charles E. to Daisy Love McKay. Michael & I both come from the line of Thomas Buck McKay.

Good luck with your research.

Dee Ann Buck
10814 Paynes Church Drive
Fairfax, VA 22032
(703) 591-2593

There's always room for disagreement in genealogy. It's a shame that somehow the question about the James McKay family gets positioned as a question of absolute right or wrong. Unless you've got DNA proof, for all we know, our great, great, great grandmother was the town tramp who had all her children by different fathers. The foundation of all these elaborate trees is a matter of belief, not fact, because no one has that kind of factual proof.

It's always interesting to hear Dee cite Hunter B. McKay because the transcription of the Green papers that I have was annotated by Hunter and he was quite clearly excited about them and he knew about the will and his initial reaction to it was it was extremely valuable.

In any event, I can cite example after example of wills that omitted children. I've seen wills that leave everything to one children, ommiotting, 10 others. I've seens wills that name grandchildren, and omit the testator's own children.

The question of the authenticity of the Green papers is interesting. Except for the question of the three daughters, not in James McKay's will, they appear extremely accurate. They are very accurate in the circumstances they report about people alive at the time. It's always interesting to hear the claim they are not an official document since when they were prepared, James McKay's children were largely still alive.

Someone should find out who Thomas Green was. I have to assume, he was related to Duff Green, Robert McKay's partner.

It's also interesting to hear that we shouldn't believe the Green papers because they have inaccuracies. I can point to inaccuracies in deeds, wills, family Bibles, tombstone inscriptions. You name not, it's been screwed up. If we through out all things that are inaccurate, genealogists we would all be out of business. My work has its share of boners and Dee's published work has its share. Does that mean we should believe either Dee or myself? Of course not, it just means we always have to double check and bear this with a bit of good humor.

I think what you have to have is an understanding of the many misconceptions that have been passed about concerning our Robert Mackay family.

Cousin Hunter did make mistakes when he compiled our genealogy records. Not to be surprised, we all do. I know his sketch of our Sowers family contained numerous errors and he also believed that it did. For example you can't have children who are older than their parents.

But, to go back to the main subject here. I think what is being attempted is an effort to go back to ORIGINAL sources for establishing who James Mackay's children were. Since Thomas Green's papers are considered a secondary source (unless I'm mistaken) other sources are considered, such as James's will in determining the correct listing of his children.

Plus, and I'm not totally aware of this, we have Quaker records. Now if James remained in the Society of Friends for a considerable amount of time then it's likely that his family would have been recorded in the records of one of the meetings.

I believe that Quakers kept pretty accurate records but I know that some would rather see old deeds and other court documents that give more proof of the children.

I know of some of our relations who emphatically insist that Robert Mackay Sr. came from Scotland and that's the end of that!!

But, unfortunately we have no concrete proof that actually says that he did. So, in my opinion I think it's wrong to come out and promote that as a fact.

Now, if I were to say it in this fashion "according to family legend, Robert came from Scotland" I let myself off of the hook in that assumption and let folks know that I don't have evidence on that subject.

Unfortunately however some folks will take that statement and print it in their genealogy records as a FACT even though I did not say it was, nor did I specify sources.

Such is the case I believe with the Thomas Green papers. I haven't seen them but I do believe that all of this would have been settled long ago if Thomas Green cited his sources for where he obtained the info. on the early generations of our family.

Yes, these papers have been duely recorded in the annals of our family's history as demonstrated in some of the other pages in this website but that doesn't mean they are 100% verifiable as a truly accurate source for listing the descendants of Robert Sr.

We have other points of disagreement within the family records that have been discussed throughout time and I really have no choice but to mention them and give my opinion on them when collecting family genealogy.

Some of these simply revolve around correct middle names of some of our relations.

There's always room for disagreement in genealogy. It's a shame that somehow the question about the James McKay family gets positioned as a question of absolute right or wrong. Unless you've got DNA proof, for all we know, our great, great, great grandmother was the town tramp who had all her children by different fathers. The foundation of all these elaborate trees is a matter of belief, not fact, because no one has that kind of factual proof.

It's always interesting to hear Dee cite Hunter B. McKay because the transcription of the Green papers that I have was annotated by Hunter and he was quite clearly excited about them and he knew about the will and his initial reaction to it was it was extremely valuable.

In any event, I can cite example after example of wills that omitted children. I've seen wills that leave everything to one children, ommiotting, 10 others. I've seens wills that name grandchildren, and omit the testator's own children.

The question of the authenticity of the Green papers is interesting. Except for the question of the three daughters, not in James McKay's will, they appear extremely accurate. They are very accurate in the circumstances they report about people alive at the time. It's always interesting to hear the claim they are not an official document since when they were prepared, James McKay's children were largely still alive.

Someone should find out who Thomas Green was. I have to assume, he was related to Duff Green, Robert McKay's partner.

It's also interesting to hear that we shouldn't believe the Green papers because they have inaccuracies. I can point to inaccuracies in deeds, wills, family Bibles, tombstone inscriptions. You name not, it's been screwed up. If we through out all things that are inaccurate, genealogists we would all be out of business. My work has its share of boners and Dee's published work has its share. Does that mean we should believe either Dee or myself? Of course not, it just means we always have to double check and bear this with a bit of good humor.

To use another adage "When I ask for the time, don't tell me how to make a watch."

You and the other Nelson & McCarty (less one) researchers do not have the honesty to simply and clearly state what are the documents you have to support the additional daughters assigned to James MacKay Sr. If your only source is "Green Report", say so.

It is off the point addressing this issue--what I think, what Hunter B. McKay thought or what you think. This a matter of a collection of documents. Stop talking around the issue--bringing up the nonsense of DNA and the telling of the "town tramps" in your family line. Just say what you have on this particular line.

Another adage, "I don't have a dog in this fight". If others want to waste their time and money collecting information about a false line, then that's their lost. I descend from Robert Mackay Jr. (son of Robert Sr.)

And do keep a grip on your humor.