robertmackayclan

I've heard about a story that was passed down through some of our relatives in Ohio (Moses McKay & Abigail Shinn's branch) that our Robert Mackay Sr., the Quaker Pioneer, was actually born in Scotland and came over here as a small child with his parents as part of a group called "The Perth Expedition".

I do not out right dismiss family legends as they can always contain an element of truth to them. It's always possible that with the telling and re-telling of stories that certain things can get changed. This is a proven fact among people.

The early stories of American Indian peoples can attest to this as with the Iroquois there are quite a few different versions of the same story telling of their origins and of the Peacemaker (the one who founded the Haudenosaunee Confederacy). All are accepted since this is of course an oral tradition.

But, when it comes to our origins in the Robert Mackay family we have documents that we can fall back on in order to verify something. Namely the Quaker records for early members of the family. Sometimes we do have to look elsewhere when the Quaker records don't have all the answers. This is the case with Robert Mackay Sr.'s early history.

Now, in regards to this story that I've heard about, there could be some truth to this for all I know since I haven't seen any documented evidence stating where Robert came from yet.

This Perth Expedition was supposed to have been around New Jersey and I have heard of other Mackays there. A person named John Mackay is one such example.

What I would like to see, if possible, is some documented evidence relating to the Perth Expedition and if indeed Mackays were a part of it. There may be a grain of truth to this story after all.

We've probably all heard a story here and there telling how our family originally came from Scotland and are related to the great Clan Mackay of Strathnaver but let's see if we can find some actual evidence that will either support or dismiss this notion.

I believe it's out there waiting to be found.

This is the same group of our "relatives" who said that Robert came from Scotland with his wife Margaret & their children. A false statement which they placed on a rock at their picnic area.

I have been down the wrong path by so many "family tales" in the past, I now look upon any with total disbelieve. The problem with "family tales" is that you can't prove or disprove the truth of the story when it is made up of oral tradition. The question should always be when, who and under what circumstances the story was formed.

If there had been any "family tales" that were true about the birth place of Robert MacKay Sr. & his early life, Hunter Branson McKay would have found them years ago.

The only fact we know of as of Aug 2000 is that Robert MacKay arrived into present day Cecil Co. MD, then Chester Co. PA with his family of children by 1723. This land deed stated that he was from Freehold, NJ, but no indication who he was married to at that time.

As far as the "Perth Expedition" I have ruled that out, because I have found the listing of names for the ship "Exchange" no McKay listed. I am very interested in John Brown. I need to find the listing of people in the ship "Thomas and Benjamin", but such a list might not exist.

I did place a posting about Daniel Maccoy on the site, according to a legal document he came as a boy from Northern Ireland. I have no idea if he was related to the John MacKay of early Freehold, NJ. I do not think we should think these people are related just because the have a similar surname. We know there were various McKay, Mackay, McCoy, McKee etc.....living in Frederick Co. VA who were not related.

Still have my eye on those MacKay who were banished to early MA from Scotland, did they removed south into NJ ? I have no idea. They liked to use the names of Alexander, Hugh & John MacKay. But these men were not Quakers.

Still have my eye on John MacKay who arrived into Northumberland Co. VA early, purchased land from Lord Fairfax. Was he the grandfather of Alexander McKay of Shenandoah Co. VA? I do not know. But my interest in this group of McKay might increase if I can not find a place for my Elizabeth McKoy who married Wm. Jenkins in Frederick Co. VA on 7 Feb 1799 among the family of "our" Robert MacKay Sr.

In genealogy we do not have to "dismiss" an idea, those who hold to a statement must prove it. It is impossible to prove a negative. They must prove in the positive way any statement.

I have seen it happen many times in genealogy, one person expresses an opinion and another person passes it along as fact. The L.D.S. Computer Bank is full of what started out as one person's opinion, "family tale", information from "family newsletter" etc... passed on to others and they pass the information on as fact. Remember "The Hugh MacKay Mess" !!!

We must except the fact that perhaps the paper does not exist to establish the birth place of Robert MacKay Sr. It will serve no good purpose to turn to general histories of Scotland or "Clan of MacKay" to fill the void.

I've mentioned this before that we know the order in which Robert married his three known wives.

Vis: 1. Ann Brown; 2. Mary _____; 3. Margaret ____.

How do we know this?

From the marriage certificates of a few of his children and Robert Sr.'s will.

These items when placed in chronological order confirm this.

If a family story states something to the contrary, well then somehow during the passing down of this story someone got something mixed up. It can always happen.

It's probably unlikely that Margaret was the mother of any of Robert's children based on this chronological order but again I could be wrong and something new will pop up to point that out. However, she is DEFINITELY NOT the mother of all of his children as one of the marriage certificates shows. "MARGARET MACKAY, dau. of Robert and Ann Brown" and the certificate was signed by Robert and Mary Mackay in the parents section.

Robert's will was written sometime afterwards with his wife Margaret mentioned which would likely mean that Mary had died and Robert remarried again to Margaret who survived him.

It would benefit all of Robert's descendants to have some factual data concerning his origins. Hopefully we'll have something some day.

I know there will probably always be those who will refuse to believe it, instead choosing to believe the misinformation that they've been accustomed to, but that's life.

Anyhow, I hope that this website can serve to be a focal point for getting the facts together.

You are some what making my point. I have three examples of "Family Tales" which proved to be wrong and cost one researcher time & monies. The last I was personally embarrassed.

1. My late great-grandmother in her 80's once when talking to my great-aunt, said that the King family came from Ireland in their own boat. Now this tale is some what right but about an entirely different branch of her family, not her late husband's family. My emigrate John King was born in England about 1746, send to the colonies as a Methodist Missionary by John Wesley. The Anglo-Irish family was the Carrington family on her side of the tree, did arrived to the Barbados from either Ireland or England. Paul Carrington's son Dr. Paul Carrington was a merchant with his own ship, the next generation arrived & settled in VA.

2. My late TN cousin--H.J. Bolen-- really wanted to be a descendant of Pocahontas. He and his cousin in NC just made up all kinds of stories about how John Bolling removed down from VA into Granville Co. NC and started their line of Bowlings/Bollings in NC. Some of which he has published in Henderson Co. TN Newspapers & Historical Magazines. All was false, which I discovered after spending about a year trying to check out his made-up stories. Hard to prove what never existed in the past.

3. Another false tale was started by my grandfather Walter Eugene Shipp. That his Shipp family was started by a Gen. Wm. Shipp who with his three sons started iron works in the Lower Shenandoah Valley. This tale was passed to Ralph D. Shipp (wrote "The Shipp Family of VA) who passed it to Mary Marie Koontz Arrington, she spend a week traveling to the various counties court houses looking for the deeds to these Shipp Family Iron Works. One can't find in the present what never occurred in the past. Whole thing made up by my grandfather. I was the one who had to tell Ms. Arrington she had been had. The truth was that members of the Shipp family had worked in the mines for others as common laborers. They worked for "the man" they weren't "the man".

The lesson I learned from all of this, is when I come upon any information, I ponder the three "w" where, who & when did this information arises. Even originial records can give what would appear different information when compared to other orginial records. When I question another researcher as to where he or she got the information and they evade the question, do they have an original source for their statement, I discount them & their information. If the answer is others' "notes", family bibles, "family tales" or older generations "recalling" I remember my "family tales."

With the question of the birth place of Robert Mackay Sr., I think people are really setting themselves up for a fall. I would be very surprised if he was a member of some noble highland tribe. As it has been pointed out on your site, Michael, it is almost impossible to really get a blood line back into the 1500's. You might be able to do so if you are a member of a Royal Family.

Ponder these two points, most families given the time period of early 1600's, traveled with family members, our Robert Mackay did not. Why !! We know the birth places through legal documents of his partners: Hite & Green/Duff, but Robert was silent. Why !! The answer to our questions might lie in his silence. No answer might be the answer he wanted us to know.

and this goes back to the Shipp story, that during the late nineteenth and early twentieth century many people wanted to have some kind of illustrious background to their family histories. Hence, this is were some people would take advantage of this idea and would publish (for a fee of course) "your family history" and link you back to kings and queens of the Middle Ages. None of which was ever based in fact though. Just a lot of references to supposed records which as it turned out never existed.

What if it were possible that our Robert Mackay took upon himself the name of "Mackay"? That has happened with other families in the past. Many of these are immigrants who had their names either Anglicized or changed altogether to "fit in" to American society. Indian families are notorious for adopting "white" surnames.

Basically one thing stands out in regards to Robert's birth origin. To claim Robert Mackay Sr. was born in Scotland without any verifiable evidence to prove this is simply making a claim.

I can claim I drive the fastest car in the world but wouldn't you want to see proof of that?

A lot of tall tales have been spread in other families I descend from. One notable tale in the Hollingsworth family is that Thomas Hollingsworth (father of Abraham of Abram's Delight) was "killed by a buffalo while on a hunting expedition a few miles northwest of Winchester".

There is no proof that this event happened to said Thomas and it's highly unlikely being that Thomas was buried in Delaware (I think). He wasn't buried in Winchester. This story came from a "family tale".

Now, there could have been a buffalo incident with someone else and as time passed the teller of the tale got it mixed up and the mixup stuck.

In any case, I'm glad that our family chose Quakerism as their religion because it records a lot of vital records that would have been very difficult to obtain had they been a member of another faith.